Walter Mondale Oral History Interview | C-SPAN.org (video)Former Vice President Walter Mondale talked about his career and how the Senate has changed over the years. He also talked about the career of former Senator Robert Dole (R-KS) and the forces that shaped him as a leader. Topics included the presidential campaigns of 1976, 1980, and 1984.
This never-before-aired interview with historian Richard Norton Smith is part of an oral history project at the Robert J. Dole Institute of Politics at the University of Kansas. The location of this interview is not known. close
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00:00:00
IN THIS NEVER BEFORE AIRED ORAL HISTORY FROM THE COLLECTION OF THE ROBERT J. DOLE INSTITUTE OF POLITICS AT THE UNIVERSITY OF KANSAS, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT...
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00:00:34
VICE PRESIDENT, FIRST OF ALL, YOU'RE UNIQUE IN THAT YOU OBVIOUSLY SERVED A CONSIDERABLE AMOUNT OF TIME IN THE SENATE. YOU PRESIDED OVER THE SENATE. YOU...
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00:01:03
WELL, I THINK IT HAS CHANGED, AND I UNDERLINE THE WORD "THINK" BECAUSE I KNOW IT'S CHANGED IN MY OWN MIND, BUT OTHERS MIGHT DISAGREE WITH IT. I THINK...
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SOMETIMES NOT ONLY DEFEAT THE PERSON BUT DESTROY THE PERSON.
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THAT'S WHAT I MEAN.
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YEAH.
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IT'S, LIKE, VENGEANCE OR SOMETHING. IT SHOULDN'T BE THAT WAY. IT DOESN'T HELP ANYBODY. THE PUBLIC LIKE DOESN'T IT. I OFTEN WONDER WHY IT CONTINUES.
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DO YOU THINK ONE FACTOR COULD BE THAT WHEN YOU AND FOR THAT MATTER, BOB DOLE, FIRST ARRIVED IN THE SENATE, YOU HAD, FIRST OF ALL, A SIGNIFICANT NUMBER...
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00:03:06
YES.
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AND THEY HAD TO FIND SOME KIND OF CONSENSUS INTERNALLY BEFORE THEY COULD OPERATE EXTERNALLY.
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YEAH. I THINK THAT'S A VERY GOOD POINT. YOU KNOW, THE SORT OF MODERATE REPUBLICANS AND THE MODERATE DEMOCRATS ALMOST HAD TO WORK TOGETHER BECAUSE THE...
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00:04:18
AND, YET, I ASSUME YOU ESTABLISHED FRIENDSHIPS WITH SOUTHERN DEMOCRATS --
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OH, YES. YEAH. ABSOLUTELY. AND EVEN THERE YOU WOULD FIND LIKE ON AGRICULTURAL THINGS YOU WOULD FIND WAYS TO WORK TOGETHER. I SERVED ON AG COMMITTEE...
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IT'S FASCINATING. I -- MORE THAN ONE PERSON WITH WHOM WE'VE SPOKEN, I REMEMBER BOB PACKWOOD, PROTECTION, AND I BELIEVE -- I THINK ALLEN SIMPSON SAID...
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00:05:22
YEAH.
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WHICH ON THE SURFACE WOULD SEEM COUNTERINTUITIVE.
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YEAH. NOPE, THAT MAKES SENSE TO ME. JOHN'S NOT GOING TO CHANGE -- WAS NOT GOING TO CHANGE ON CIVIL RIGHTS, BUT HE WAS COURTLY JUDICIAL. I THINK HE HAD...
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00:05:51
WERE STAFFS SMALLER IN THOSE DAYS?
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OH, YEAH. AND THEY -- WHEN I GOT THERE THEY WERE JUST GETTING OVER THIS OLD SITUATION WHERE THE SENIOR WHALES IN THE SENATE GOT ALL THE STAFF AND THE...
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00:06:35
AND IS IT TRUE FRESHMEN WERE SUPPOSED TO BE SEEN AND NOT HEARD?
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WELL, I'M TOLD THAT WAS TRUE BEFORE I ARRIVED THERE, BUT THAT -- ONE GOOD THING LYNDON JOHNSON DID THERE, HE TRIED TO EMPOWER FRESHMEN SENATORS WITH...
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00:07:03
INTERESTING TO KNOW, BECAUSE, OF COURSE, OBVIOUSLY DOLE WAS MAJORITY AND MINORITY LEADE WORKING BACK FROM THAT, PEOPLE LIKE MIKE BANSFIELD, WHO SEEM...
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00:07:21
IN SOME WAYS IT'S EASIER TO LEAD, AND SOME WAYS TOUGHER. BUT ANYWAY --
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HOW?
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YOU TRY TO KEEP 67 PEOPLE HAPPY. WHERE YOU HAVE THE INTERNAL JEALOUSIES AND THE KIND OF LONG-TERM STABLE AND UNCHANGING NUMBERS. I THINK IT TOOK A...
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THE JOHNSON LEGEND -- IS THE LEDGE FOR REAL? HOW MUCH OF THAT WAS LYNDON JOHNSON'S PERSONALITY, TEMPERAMENT? HOW MUCH WERE THE INSTRUMENTS AVAILABLE...
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00:08:05
WELL, I THINK YOU HAVE TO GIVE LYNDON A LOT OF CREDIT. HE WAS THE MASTER OF THE SENATE. HE KNEW THE RULES. HE WAS ABSOLUTELY TIRELESS. HE WOULD SET AN...
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00:08:59
WAS IT, IN FACT, THE WORLD'S GREATEST DELIBERATIVE BODY, OR IS THAT ORATORICAL TRADITION BEGINNING TO FADE?
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I THINK IT CAN BE THE WORLD'S GREATEST DELIBERATIVE BODY, AND I THINK MOST PARLIAMENTARY INSTITUTIONS CANNOT BE BECAUSE OF THEIR RULES AND NUMBERS. BUT...
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AND PRESUMABLY, THERE'S BEEN A SEA CHANGE IN HOW THE MEDIA COVERS THE SENATE, AND ISSUES. I MEAN, CLEARLY THERE WAS A VERY SERIOUS PROFOUND NATIONAL...
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YOU KNOW, I AM NOT SURE. I THINK IF THE SENATE WERE REALLY DEBATING THESE GREAT QUESTIONS, IF WE HAD A REALLY SERIOUS DEBATE ABOUT IRAQ, FOR EXAMPLE,...
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AND WHY DO YOU THINK WE'RE NOT HAVING -- THERE'S CERTAINLY NO SHORTAGE OF ISSUES THAT WARRANT THOSE KINDS OF HEARINGS.
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OH, YES, YES, YES. I THINK THAT THE -- THAT THERE'S TWO OR THREE THINGS THAT WORK HERE. ONE, I DON'T WANT TO SOUND PARTISAN HERE, BUT I THINK THAT WE'VE...
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00:13:02
LET ME ASK YOU, YOU ARRIVED IN THE SENATE IN '64 AND DOLE CAME FOUR YEARS LATER.
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NIXON'S IN THE WHITE HOUSE. FIRST PRESIDENT SINCE ZACHARY TAYLOR TO HAVE BOTH HOUSES CONTROLLED BY THE OPPOSITION.
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RIGHT.
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AND DOLE ARRIVES AS A NEWCOMER AND IS QUICKLY DUBBED THE SHERIFF OF THE SENATE.
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YEP.
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TELL ME ABOUT THAT. ONE SENSES THAT HE, MORE THAN MOST, ILLUSTRATES AT LEAST THE CAPACITY FOR GROWTH --
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YES.
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OVER TIME. IN ORDER TO DEMONSTRATE GROWTH YOU HAVE TO GO BACK TO THE BEGINNING. WHAT WAS BOB DOLE LIKE WHEN HE ARRIVED IN THE SENATE?
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SOMEBODY SAID POLITICIANS EITHER GROW OR THEY SWELL. AND BOB GREW. I WAS THERE WHEN HE ARRIVED. HE WAS -- HE'D BEEN IN THE HOUSE, AND I THINK HE BROUGHT...
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00:14:36
OF COURSE, HE WAS ALSO CHAIRMAN OF THE RNC.
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YES. AT THE SAME TIME. AT THE SAME TIME. I COULD SEE HIM CHANGE, AND HE GOT OVER THAT STUFF. I THINK PARTLY BECAUSE OF EXPERIENCE WITH NIXON, PROBABLY...
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00:15:09
AND, OF COURSE, HE ALSO HAD THE NEAR-DEATH EXPERIENCE OF '74 WHEN HE CAME VERY CLOSE TO LOSING THAT SEAT.
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YES, YES. YOU KNOW, HE -- HE -- WE USED TO DO A LOT WITH BOB DOLE. HUMPHREY DID. HUMPHREY AND DOLE WERE VERY CLOSE.
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WERE THEY CLOSE FROM THE BEGINNING?
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I THINK MAYBE IT TOOK DOLE A COUPLE YEARS BEFORE HE GOT OFF HIS FIRST APPROACH, THE HOUSE APPROACH, I MIGHT CALL IT, AND BECAME WHAT HE REALLY BECAME...
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IT'S, OF COURSE, IRONIC, THAT ONE PERSON WITH WHOM HE WORKED VERY CLOSELY WITH, THAT WAS GEORGE McGOVERN.
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ABSOLUTELY.
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WHO HE HAD BEEN BEATING UP ON AS RNC CHAIRMAN IN '72.
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YEAH. THEY WERE -- BOB DOLE AND HUMPHREY USED TO GO DOWN TO MIAMI, FLORIDA. THEY HAD A FRIEND AND SOMETIMES THEY'D GET DOWN THERE AROUND CHRISTMAS...
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IT WAS POSSIBLE TO --
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OH, YEAH.
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TO COMPARTMENTALIZE?
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THAT'S WHAT I REMEMBER ABOUT THOSE DAYS. I THINK IT WAS TIP O'NEILL SAID POLITICS ENDS AT 6:00. PEOPLE WOULD GO OFF THAT FLOOR. I REMEMBER ONE TIME I...
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YOU KNOW, IT'S AS IF -- I MEAN, IN A NUTSHELL, YOU'RE TRYING TO NARROW DIFFERENCES RATHER THAN EXPLOIT THEM.
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RIGHT, RIGHT. AND THERE WERE SOME STRENGTHS TO BE FOUND IN FINDING THAT HUMAN CONNECTION. SO MANY WAYS IN WHICH YOU COULD SOLVE PROBLEMS, YOU KNOW? TOMMY,...
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00:18:57
WERE THERE PEOPLE, IN PARTICULAR, ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE AISLE THAT YOU FOUND YOURSELF WORKING WITH?
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OH, YEAH. I WORKED WITH BOB DOLE ON A LOT OF -- ON THE AGRICULTURAL STUFF AND ON THE FOOD STAMP THINGS. THE HUNGER COMMISSION.
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DO YOU THINK THAT WAS AN EYE-OPENING EXPERIENCE FOR HIM? BECAUSE HE HAD -- I OFTEN THOUGHT -- PEOPLE EMPHASIZE, UNDERSTANDABLY, HIS WAR EXPERIENCES....
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00:19:18
YES, YES.
00:19:20
I'VE OFTEN THOUGHT THEY TEND TO OVERLOOK THE DEFINING EXPERIENCE OF GROWING UP IN THE DUST BOWL AND DEPRESSION WITH NO MONEY.
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OH, YEAH.
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AND NO PROSPECTS.
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RIGHT. AND POOR -- HE CAME FROM A SMALL RURAL COUNTY. I'M SURE HE DIDN'T HAVE MUCH MONEY, AND ALL OF THEM WENT THROUGH THE, YOU KNOW, THE HORRORS OF...
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I'VE OFTEN WONDERED, I THINK THERE'S A LITTLE BIT OF THE POPULIST IN DOLE.
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YES. THAT'S WHAT HELPED BUILD HIM AS A LEADER, I THINK. YOU ASKED ME A MOMENT AGO ABOUT THE FOOD STAMP AND SCHOOL LUNCHES AND SO ON. IF YOU'D ASK ME...
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I KNOW HE CHERISHED THE FRIENDSHIP WITH HUMPHREY. THAT WAS SOMETHING THAT REALLY --
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YEAH. THEY HAD, YOU KNOW, THEY WERE DOWN THERE, I MENTIONED, IN FLORIDA, TOGETHER, BUT THEY WOULD WORK TOGETHER ON ALL THESE -- I THINK THEY WERE ON...
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00:20:59
I THINK, I THINK THEY'VE TALKED NOT LONG BEFORE SENATOR HUMPHREY DIED.
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YEAH. THEY WERE ON THE PHONE TOGETHER. I THINK BOB CAME OVER TO SEE HIM. YEP.
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WHY DO YOU THINK IT'S SO DIFFICULT FOR SENATORS TO MOVE DIRECTLY FROM THE SENATE TO THE WHITE HOUSE? I WONDER -- I'LL BREAK THAT DOWN. IF THERE ISN'T...
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00:21:35
WELL, I -- YOU KNOW, I'VE GOT SOME THEORIES ABOUT IT. THEY ARE ONLY THEORIES. SENATORS BY IN LARGE HAVE NOT DONE WELL RUNNING FOR THE PRESIDENCY. THERE'S...
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00:22:35
WHEN YOU HAVE A SENSE OF HUMOR TO BEGIN WITH, I MEAN, IT SORT OF, YOU KNOW?
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NOT REALLY DAWN IN AMERICA THERE.
00:22:51
NO. THE --
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THE OTHER THING, OF COURSE, I THINK THAT IN THE SENATE, IF YOU'RE THERE FOR A WHILIL YOU VOVO ON EVERYTHIHING. YOVOVOTEVEVERND OVER AGAIN ONN EVERERYTHI. AND...
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00:23:50
IS IT EXAGGERATED, THE TENDENCY OF SENATORS ONCE THEY ARRIVE IN THE SENATE TO LOOK IN THE MIRROR AND SEE POTENTIAL PRESIDENTS?
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WELL, BOB DOLE -- NOT BOB DOLE -- NEVER MIND, THE DNC CHAIRMAN. BOB.
00:24:12
STRAUSS?
00:24:13
BOB STRAUSS. HE HAD A SECRET LIST OF TEN SENATORS WHO WERE NOT INTERESTED IN RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT. IT IS A KIND OF INFECTIOUS DISEASE THERE. I THINK...
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00:24:47
WHEN DID YOU GIBBBEGIN TO THINK AN THAT?
00:24:50
I WAS IN THE SIXTH GRADE. I DON'T KNOW. '72 OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT.
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AND YOU FAMOUSLY SAID -- WHAT WAS THE LINE ABOUT STAYING AT THE HOLIDAY INN?
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I DIDN'T WANT TO SPEND THE REST OF MY LIFE IN HOLIDAY INNS AND THEN WHEN I ENDED UP RUNNING FOR VICE PRESIDENT WITH CARTER, I GOT CONFRONTED WITH THAT...
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I WONDER IN A CURIOUS SORT OF WAY, I WONDER IF THAT DIDN'T RECOMMEND YOU TO CARTER. I MEAN, LET'S FACE IT. TRADITIONALLY PRESIDENTS PICK A RUNNING MATE...
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00:25:30
NO. I THINK IT SAYS SOMETHING ABOUT CARTER. I THINK A LOT OF TIMES VICE PRESIDENTS HAVE TROUBLE WITH THEIR PRESIDENT BECAUSE THEY'RE REMINDING THEM...
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00:26:22
YOU AND BOB DOLE WOULD FIND YOURSELF RUNNING AGAINST EACH OTHER IN '76.
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YEAH.
00:26:27
HOW DID YOU GET TO BE ON THE DEMOCRATIC TICKET?
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I THINK THAT CARTER, WHO WAS A PUNITIVE NOMINEE AND HAD, I THINK, THE CHOICE ALMOST OF WHOEVER HE WANTED, LOOKED AT A RANGE OF CANDIDATES, WENT UP...
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00:28:01
PEOPLE FORGET, IT'S AMAZING HOW THE ELECTORAL CALENDAR REVERSES ITSELF. 30 YEARS AGO, OF COURSE, YOU SWEPT THE SOUTH AND FORD TOOK MICHIGAN, NEW JERSEY,...
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RIGHT.
00:28:15
JUST EXTRAORDINARY.
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WE HAD A CLIFF HANGER. AND WE FINALLY WON 3:00 IN THE MORNING WITH MISSISSIPPI IN 1976.
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NOW, I ALWAYS WANTED TO ASK YOU, BECAUSE BEING AROUND HIM IS A SENSITIVE SUBJECT. WHEN YOU WERE STANDING THERE IN THE MIDDLE OF THAT DEBATE AND YOU...
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00:28:46
SOMETHING LIKE THAT. WELL, YOU KNOW, WE HAD HAD A MEETING, AND I'M SURE HE HAD A MEETING, TRYING TO ANTICIPATE WHAT WOULD COME UP IN THE DEBATE. AND...
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00:29:35
DID YOU KNOW INSTANTLY?
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YEAH. I KNEW WHERE HE WAS GOING. YOU KNOW, POLITICIANS ARE NOT VERY COMPLEX. WE'RE ALL GIVING THESE SPEECHES. WE'VE ALL GOT OUR BEST LINES. I WAS AWARE...
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00:29:50
TO GO BACK, SO, DID YOU HAVE AN ACTUAL KIND OF REHEARSAL? DID SOMEONE PLAY DOLE?
00:29:56
NO, WE WEREN'T THAT SOPHISTICATED IN THOSE DAYS. WE SAT DOWN WITH EIGHT OR TEN PEOPLE WHO STUDIED THE ISSUES AND DISCUSS THEED WHAT THE ISSUES WOULD...
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00:30:14
AND WHAT DID YOUR RUNNING MATE -- DID HE TALK TO YOU THAT NIGHT AFTER THE DEBATE?
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YEAH. HE WAS VERY PLEASED. HE KNEW -- AND THAT, YOU KNOW, THE ELECTIONS WERE VERY CLOSE. THE CAMPAIGN WAS VERY CLOSE. I THINK WE OPENED UP A LEAD OF TWO...
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00:31:04
YOU KNOW, THE FASCINATING THING IS, HE KNEW -- HE KNEW -- OF COURSE, HE'S SO STUBBORN. HE WOULDN'T GIVE IN. THE THING WAS, HE HAD VISITED -- BECAUSE...
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00:31:27
THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN NO TROUBLE, BUT SOMEHOW HE WANTED THE LANGUAGE HE USED TO BELIEVE THAT POLAND WAS FREE AND IT WAS NOT YET FREE. THAT WAS -- THREE...
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00:31:44
YEARS LATER WHEN WE REDID THE MUSEUM AND THE POLISH GAFFE PLAYS OVER AND OVER. IT'S IN THE EXHIBIT. AND WE'RE TAKING THEM THROUGH. I SAID, SEE, YOU WEREN'T...
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00:31:58
RIGHT.
00:31:58
IT TOOK A WHILE, THOUGH, BEFORE HE COULD LAUGH ABOUT IT.
00:32:02
IT MUST HAVE BEEN PAINFUL.
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HOW WOULD YOU CHARACTERIZE THE -- IN YOUR VIEW, THE MAIN ISSUES? THE DEFINING ISSUES IN THE '76 CAMPAIGN? PARTICULARLY THE THINGS YOU WERE OUT THERE...
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00:32:21
I THINK THE PARDON HAD MORE TO DO WITH THE OUTCOME OF THAT ELECTION THAN THE PUNDITS HAVE SAID. AND I SAY THAT BECAUSE THE FEW TIMES I USED THE ISSUE,...
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00:34:10
IT'S INTERESTING, BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, THE CONVERSATIONS I'VE HAD WITH BOTH OF THEM, FORD THOUGHT AT THE TIME THAT, YOU KNOW -- I MEAN, THEY WERE SO FAR DOWN...
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00:34:26
RIGHT.
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AND I MEAN THE DAKOTAS AND KANSAS AND NEBRASKA.
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RIGHT.
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AND SO I -- WHETHER IT'S A RATIONALIZATION, AFTER THE FACT, OR A FACTOR OF THE TIME, YOU KNOW, I THINK THEY ALSO THOUGHT IT WOULD BE ACCEPTABLE TO THE...
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00:34:43
YEAH. THAT'S AN IMPORTANT THING, DON'T YOU THINK, THAT REAGAN CHALLENGED FORD AND CAME VERY CLOSE TO UPENDING HIM AND FORWARD WAS THINKING VERY CAREFULLY...
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00:35:15
YEAH. IN FACT, I THINK IT'S ALSO SOME CONTENTION BECAUSE HE WAS TOLD VERY EXPLICITLY AT THAT TIME, IF YOU WANT TO HAVE A MEETING WITH GOVERNOR REAGAN...
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00:35:35
OH, SURE. ABSOLUTELY.
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WE ALL KNOW, I MEAN, FORD TALKED ABOUT STAYING IN THE -- DOLE TALKED ABOUT FORD STAYING IN THE ROSE GARDEN. HE WENT OUT IN THE BRIER PATCH.
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I WANT TO SAY ONE THING, AND I'M NOT SURE HOW SOLID I AM ON THIS, BUT I HAVE THIS RECOLLECTION THAT REAGAN NEVER REALLY WENT OUT AND TRIED VERY HARD...
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00:36:09
YEAH. STATES LIKE MISSISSIPPI --
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WE WERE THAT CLOSE. YEAH.
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AND SOUTHERN OHIO. PLACES WHERE REAGAN --
00:36:17
YEP.
00:36:18
IN FACT, I'VE OFTEN THOUGHT, IT'S BASED ON SOME FACTUAL BASIS THAT ONE OF THE THINGS THAT BROUGHT PRESIDENTS FORD AND CARTER TOGETHER WERE IN LATER...
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00:36:29
WAS JUST THAT.
00:36:30
WAS RONALD REAGAN. THEY BOTH HAD RUN AGAINST HIM AND I'M NOT SURE THEY PARTICULARLY --
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THEY WERE STILL THINKING ABOUT IT.
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I THINK THEY WERE MAYBE STILL THINKING ABOUT IT. THE VICE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE DOES TRADITIONALLY SORT OF CARRY THE, YOU KNOW, THE BURDEN OF BEING...
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00:36:59
I HAD A MAP AND IT WAS ALL WHERE YOU'D EXPECT. I STARTED ON THE EAST COAST, I WENT ACROSS THE MIDWEST AND THEN I WOULD GET TO ABOUT NEBRASKA AND JUMP...
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00:37:27
YES, YOU DID. DON'T -- TRUE STORY. I WAS TOLD THIS STORY FIRST AND DOLE CONFIRMED IT. TALK ABOUT THE SEAT OF THE PANTS. ONE DAY HE WAS ON THE PLANE,...
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00:37:42
JUST LIKE THAT. OH, YEAH. NO, THE LAST WEEK IS NO LONGER STRATEGIC. MINUTE TO MINUTE.
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THERE IS A QUALITY -- IT'S FUNNY, THERE'S A QUALITY ABOUT DOLE I THINK WOULD SURPRISE PEOPLE TO HEAR IT BECAUSE THEY THINK OF HIM AS SORT OF THIS DRIVEN,...
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00:38:12
HE HAD -- HE HAS A VERY HEALTHY SENSE OF THE RIDICULOUS. HE ALSO IS A VERY SERIOUS, SUBSTANTIAL PERSON WHO CARES ABOUT HIS COUNTRY. THE WONDERFUL STUFF...
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00:39:16
I CAN'T TELL YOU HOW MANY TIMES HE TOLD ME, IN THIS PLACE YOU CAN'T KEEP A GRUDGE.
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NOPE.
00:39:23
AND AROUND THIS PLACE THE ONLY THING YOU HAVE IN THE END IS YOUR WORD.
00:39:26
THAT'S RIGHT.
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AND IF IT'S NO GOOD, PEOPLE WILL WRITE YOU OFF.
00:39:30
THAT'S RIGHT. AND HE WAS THAT PERSON. AND THAT'S WHAT MAKES THE SENATE CLICK WHEN IT CLICKS.
00:39:40
RIGHT AFTER -- HE TOLD ME AN AMAZING STORY. IT MAY HAVE BEEN THE DAY AFTER '76. CERTAINLY BEEN TWO OR THREE DAYS. HE GOT A CALL FROM HUBERT HUMPHREY.
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YEP.
00:39:51
YOU KNOW ABOUT THAT?
00:39:52
NO, I DON'T KNOW. THAT DOESN'T SURPRISE ME.
00:39:54
HUBERT HUMPHREY CALLED HIM. I THINK THEY SAID, LET'S HAVE LUNCH OR SOMETHING. HE SAID, LOOK, RIGHT NOW, YOU KNOW, YOU'RE GOING TO GET A LOT OF CRITICISM. BUT...
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00:40:18
THAT WOULD BE -- THAT'S A SIGN OF WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT. DOLE AND HUMPHREY ARE VERY CLOSE, BUT IT WASN'T -- JUST A SIGN OF HOW DOLE WAS BROADENING...
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00:40:38
DO YOU -- HAS HE EVER DISCUSSED THE DEBATES WITH YOU SINCE?
00:40:43
NO, NO. YOU KNOW, I SEE HIM ONCE IN A WHILE. I SEE HIM LESS THAN I USED TO, BUT WE ALWAYS HAVE A GOOD TIME. WE START TALKING, RIGHT, ABOUT THINGS, AND...
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00:41:07
WERE YOU HAVING A GOOD NIGHT?
00:41:09
WELL, I'VE HAD WORSE NIGHTS.
00:41:12
WITH A LITTLE HELP FROM THE --
00:41:13
YEAH, WELL, THAT ONE NIGHT WITH REAGAN WASN'T MUCH FRONT.
00:41:18
ON THE FIRST ONE YOU DID --
00:41:19
YEAH. YOU KNOW, IT'S, AGAIN, IT WAS A -- HE PERFORMED POORLY THE FIRST NIGHT. THAT'S OFTEN THE CASE, SORT OF SUICIDE.
00:41:29
DO YOU THINK WE PUT TOO MUCH EMPHASIS ON DEBATES? BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT REALLY DEBATES.
00:41:35
THEY'RE NOT REALLY DEBATES IN A COLLEGE SCHOLARLY STANDARD BOOK, BUT THEY'RE THE CLOSEST THING THAT THE AMERICAN PEOPLE HAVE IN A CAMPAIGN TO LOOK AT...
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00:43:02
I THINK TO THE ONE DEBATE IN '80, WHICH WAS -- I THINK MOST PEOPLE AGREE, PIVOTAL IN DETERMINING, AT LEAST THE DIMENSIONS OF THE OUTCOME --
00:43:11
NO QUESTION ABOUT IT.
00:43:12
WHEN YOU STOP TO THINK ABOUT SOME EXTRAORDINARY CONSEQUENCES GROWING OUT OF A TOSSED OFF, THERE YOU GO AGAIN. PRESUMABLY THAT DEBATE WAS ALL ABOUT...
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00:43:29
I THINK THERE WAS A BIG NATIONAL CONCERN THAT HE WASN'T READY OR WAS OVERRIPE FOR THE PRESIDENCY. AND HE WENT IN THERE AND STOOD AND WAS ASSURED AND...
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00:44:09
WHEN YOU WERE VICE PRESIDENT, WHAT KIND OF CONTACT -- BECAUSE YOU'RE PRESIDING OVER THE SENATE BUT YOU'RE PRESUMABLY UP THERE QUITE A BIT OF THE TIME....
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00:44:15
YEAH, I WAS UP THERE.
00:44:16
OF COURSE, BY THIS TIME, DOLE OBVIOUSLY THINKING ABOUT RUNNING IN 1980, WHICH IS GOING TO LEND HIM EVEN MORE PARTISAN --
00:44:25
HE WAS ALWAYS RUNNING. HE'S LIKE HUMPHREY. SOMETHING OUT THERE TO EAT.
00:44:32
AND I THINK -- I REMEMBER AT SOME POINT, DIDN'T PRESIDENT CARTER TRY, I GUESS, TO GET HIS VOTE ON THE PANAMA CANAL TREATY?
00:44:41
YES, DID HE VOTE NO?
00:44:44
I THINK HE VOTED NO.
00:44:46
WE TRIED TO GET EVERYBODY. I THINK I TALKED TO HIM AND THIS -- I THINK HE'D SPOKEN OUT ON IT SO OFTEN FOR SO MANY YEARS, HE DIDN'T FEEL HE COULD SERIOUSLY...
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00:45:19
I THINK I REMEMBER SOMEWHERE SEEING -- I THINK IN THE COURSE OF THIS SERIES, PRESIDENT CARTER SAYING THAT WAS THE TOUGHEST -- THE TOUGHEST THING HE...
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00:45:31
IT WAS THE MOST JOYLESS VICTORY I'VE EVER HAD IN POLITICS. WHEN WE FINALLY GOT THE VOTES, WHICH NOBODY THOUGHT WE COULD DO, THE POLLS SHOWED THAT SOMETHING...
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00:46:05
THAT'S RIGHT.
00:46:05
BECAUSE THEY VOTED FOR IT.
00:46:06
ADAM CLYBURN HAS A NEW BOOK COMING OUT --
00:46:10
ON THIS? OH, YES.
00:46:11
HE ARGUES IT REALLY IS THE BIRTH OF THE MODERN CONSERVATIVE. I MEAN, IT KEPT REAGAN'S CAREER GOING IN '76.
00:46:17
I KNOW THIS IS NOT ABOUT KELLER, BUT WE HAD THIS WONDERFUL, TRUE STORY. WE WERE TRYING TO GET KELLER TO VOTE FOR THE TREATY AND HE HAD CAMPAIGNED AGAINST...
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00:47:47
PRESUMABLY, THE BIWEEKLY MEETINGS DID NOT MATERIALIZE?
00:47:51
I DOUBT IT.
00:47:52
AMONG OTHER THINGS, THAT'S FASCINATING, BECAUSE IT DOES -- IT BELIES THE POPULAR NOTION OF JIMMY CARTER AS SOMEONE WHO'S NOT POLITICALLY AGILE.
00:48:04
HE'S FAST, TOO. HIS MIND'S VERY QUICK.
00:48:07
YOU KNOW, IT'S INTERESTING, I'LL NEVER FORGET WHEN WE DEDICATED THE DOLE INSTITUTE, OF ALL THINGS THAT HAPPENED THAT WEEK, I THINK THE THING DOLE MOST...
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00:48:21
YES.
00:48:22
HE WAS -- IT WAS FASCINATING. HE -- I'LL NEVER FORGET, THE MORNING OF THE DEDICATION HE WAS TAKING PRESIDENT CARTER AROUND ON A TOUR, AND THAT DAY, OR...
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00:48:41
YES, I'M SURE OF IT. I'M SURE OF IT. AND, YOU KNOW, WE ALL NEED THIS. I REMEMBER WHEN CLINTON AND BUSH I WENT DOWN TO THE SOUTH PACIFIC AFTER THAT HUGE...
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00:49:15
WHAT IS IT ABOUT THE POLITICAL PROCESS YOU HAVE TO BE AN ELDER STATESMAN BEFORE YOU CAN BE A STATESMAN?
00:49:21
WELL, MOST OF THESE PEOPLE THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT SHOWED THOSE SYMPTOMS WHILE THEY WERE IN PUBLIC LIFE. I DON'T THINK IT WORKS AT MIDNIGHT IN YOUR...
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00:49:36
DO YOU THINK IN SOME CASES THEY WOULD HAVE LIKED TO HAVE DONE MORE, BUT THE POLITICAL PROCESS AS IT HAS EVOLVED MAKES IT DIFFICULT?
00:49:44
I THINK THE PRESSURE'S ALWAYS ON TO, YOU KNOW, CUT THIS THING POLITICALLY WHEN MAYBE PERSONALLY YOU'D LIKE TO COMPROMISE SOME WAY.
00:49:54
COUPLE OTHER QUICK THINGS. ONE IS, I REALIZE YOU WERE OUT OF OFFICE AT THE TIME, BUT YOU MUST HAVE BEEN FOLLOWING ALL OF THIS. I WONDER -- PEOPLE ALL...
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00:50:27
YEP.
00:50:28
AND HE HADN'T HAD THAT RESPONSIBILITY.
00:50:30
YOU GOT IT. BECAUSE I THINK IF YOU -- IF YOU WANT TO BE A REALLY GOOD CHAIRMAN OF THE FINANCE COMMITTEE, YOU HAVE TO GET -- YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THOSE...
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00:51:46
WHAT KIND OF CHAIRMAN WAS RUSSELL LONG?
00:51:50
I LOVED THE GUY. BRILLIANT, KNEW THE SENATE, THE LAWS, CLEVER. I MEAN, HE KNEW HOW TO HANDLE TAX LAWS. WE ONLY CALLED HIM UP THE DAY UP THE DAY BEFORE...
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00:52:18
DID HE TALK ABOUT HIS DAD?
00:52:19
YEAH. HE TALKED ABOUT HIS DAD. HE TALKED ABOUT UNCLE EARL, MOSTLY. AND HE'D SAY, DON'T TAX YOU, DON'T TAX ME, TAX THAT FELLA BEHIND THE TREE. AND HE...
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00:52:39
BEING CHAIRMAN OF THE FINANCE COMMITTEE, I MEAN, WHAT KIND OF PREPARATION WAS THAT FOR --
00:52:44
WELL, I WAS NEVER CHAIRMAN, BUT I WAS ON THE FINANCE COMMITTEE UNTIL I WENT TO THE WHITE HOUSE. AND I WAS INVOLVED IN -- YOU KNOW, AS A YOUNGER MEMBER...
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00:53:00
WHAT WAS THAT?
00:53:01
WELL, JUST -- WHEN I RAN FOR PRESIDENT, I THINK I HAD A MUCH MORE SOBER VIEW ABOUT WHAT WAS POSSIBLE POSSIBLE, AND -- BECAUSE ONCE YOU GET INTO THAT...
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00:53:36
IT'S CURIOUS, DOLE'S NATIONAL CAREER SORT OF UNFOLDED AT A TIME WHEN THE PARTY AND THE CULTURE OF CONSERVATIVISM WAS IN MANY WAYS MOVINGING IN A DIFFERENT...
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00:53:47
I WONDER HOW MUCH HE BELIEVED IN THAT RELIGIOUS RIGHT STUFF. I THINK THAT WHEN THAT THING GOT RED HOT, ALMOST ALL THEIR NATIONAL LEADERS HAD TO -- THIS...
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00:54:37
DID YOU EVER HAVE A SITUATION LIKE THAT IN YOUR OWN PARTY OR YOUR OWN CAREER WHERE YOU FELT YOU HAD TO KIND OF SIGN ONTO SOMETHING THAT YOU WEREN'T...
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00:54:46
I HAD AN UNDERSTANDING WITH CARTER. I SAID, LOOK, WHEN WE TALKED FIRST ABOUT RUNNING TOGETHER, I SAID, YOU KNOW, I LOVE THE SENATE. I DON'T HAVE TO...
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00:55:42
WAS THAT INFLUENCED AT ALL BY THE EXAMPLE OF HUBERT HUMPHREY?
00:55:46
YES. YES. AND I THINK HUMPHREY -- IF YOU READ HUMPHREY'S AUTOBIOGRAPHY, THAT CHAPTER IN THERE WHERE HE TALKS ABOUT HOW HE GOT INTO THIS CHEERLEADING...
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00:56:13
WHAT -- HOW DO YOU THINK BOB DOLE SHOULD BE REMEMBERED?
00:56:17
I THINK HE SHOULD BE REMEMBERED AS A VERY FINE AMERICAN WHO SERVED US IN WAR AND CAME UP FROM AN IMPOVERISHED BACKGROUND AND DEVELOPED INTO ONE OF...
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00:56:59
HE'S ALSO, I THINK, LIKE YOU -- OR I THINK OF JIMMY CARTER, A NUMBER OF PEOPLE -- HE NEVER FORGOT WHERE HE CAME FROM.
00:57:06
NO, NO, NO. AND I LIKE THAT ABOUT HIM. WHEN YOU'RE WITH HIM ALONE, YOU DON'T HAVE ANY OF THIS YOU'RE WITH A GREAT MAN HERO. YOU JUST TALK LIKE THE KIDS...
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00:57:46
DO YOU THINK IT DEFINED HIM?
00:57:50
I DON'T THINK IT DEFINED HIM, BUT I THINK IT SORT OF -- THIS IS MY GUESS, THAT IT WAS A CENTRAL PART OF HIS LIFE, THAT IT MATURED HIM, THAT HE WAS STRUGGLING...
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00:58:26
THERE'S A THEORY THAT HE BECAME OBSESSED WITH DEMONSTRATING HIS INDEPENDENCE, I MEAN, JUST BECAUSE YOU CAN'T MOVE, YOU KNOW.
00:58:34
YEAH.
00:58:34
AND OVER TIME, AND THAT THAT REALLY CARRIED OVER, MADE IT IMPOSSIBLE TO -- IT'S HARD TO IMAGINE --
00:58:40
YOU MEAN WHEN HE WAS RUNNING?
00:58:42
YEAH.
00:58:43
OH, I'M SURE.
00:58:44
LESS AMENABLE TO HAVING HANDLERS HANDLE HIM.
00:58:48
YEAH. HE'S A HANDLER'S NIGHTMARE, I'M SURE. YEAH. HE WAS NOT A MODERN MA NIP LABL PUBLIC RELATIONS FIGURE AT ALL. I THINK HE WAS BOB DOLE FROM RUSSELL,...
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00:59:01
AND IN AN ODD WAY, TELEVISION BOTH WORKED AGAINST HIM --
00:59:04
RIGHT.
00:59:05
AND IN SOME WAYS SINCE '96 IT'S WORKED FOR HIM. I MEAN, IT'S HELD HIM TO ADVANTAGE.
00:59:12
YEP. WELL, HE LOST, AND -- BUT I DON'T THINK THE PEOPLE LOST RESPECT IN HIM. THAT'S AN IMPORTANT DISTINCTION, I THINK. IT'S POSSIBLE TO LOSE BOTH THE...
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00:59:49
AND THE LAST THING, BECAUSE YOU BOTH BELONG TO THIS CLUB OF PEOPLE WHO'VE RUN.
00:59:53
YEAH. YEAH.
00:59:55
AND HOW -- YOU KNOW, HOW DOES THAT AFFECT THE REST OF YOUR LIFE? HAVE YOU EVER COMPARED NOTES ABOUT THE PROCESS OR --
01:00:02
WELL, YOU KNOW, IT'S KIND OF SUBLIMINAL WHEN WE'RE TOGETHER. WE BOTH KNOW.
01:00:11
FOR EXAMPLE, WOULD YOU AGREE THAT CAMPAIGNS HAVE BECOME, SAY, OVER THE LAST GENERATION, LESS SUBSTANTIVE OR -- OR -- AT THE PRESIDENTIAL LEVEL THAT...
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01:00:29
WELL, I THINK IT'S SOMEWHAT UP TO THE CANDIDATE. YOU'VE GOT MORE OPPORTUNITIES FOR SUX SUBSTANCE NOW THAN BEFORE BECAUSE WITH THE INTERNET AND THE MODERN...
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01:02:12
AND FINALLY, WHAT HAPPENS IN THE CURRENT CONTEXT WHEN THE CAMPAIGN'S BEEN GOING ON FOR A YEAR --
01:02:19
YEAH.
01:02:20
AND WE HAVE ANOTHER YEAR --
01:02:21
RIGHT. RIGHT.
01:02:22
WHAT DOES THAT DO TO THE MANDATE?
01:02:25
YEAH. AND IT'S SO TIRESOME. YOU CAN SEE IT ON THE CANDIDATES' EYES. YOU JUST LOOK AT THEM. THEY'RE ALREADY GETTING TIRED. I REMEMBER, I HAD BEEN ON THE...
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*This text was compiled from uncorrected Closed Captioning.
PEOPLE IN THIS VIDEO
Walter F. Mondale
U.S. Vice President (Former)
United States
Richard Norton Smith
Director (Former)
University of Kansas->Robert J. Dole Institute of Politics
HOSTING ORGANIZATION
Dole (Robert J.) Institute of Politics
SERIES
Oral Histories
American History TV
More information about
Walter Mondale Oral History Interview
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